Smiling Friends has staked its claim over the 2020s in television animation.
The continuously hysterical adventures of Pim and Charlie and their quest to help people smile has engrained itself into the culture at large in the same way The Simpsons, Beavis and Butt-Head and South Park did in the 1990s, that Family Guy and Aqua Teen Hunger Force did in the 2000s and Rick and Morty, Bob’s Burgers, BoJack Horseman and Big Mouth did in the 2010s.
It’s a landmark program, a brilliant, painfully funny dive into full 2020s absurdism, fueled by the Wild West days of the 2000s internet and the unreal heights of 1990s and 2000s animation. It’s already established itself as one of the defining animated shows of our time and one of the best we’ve ever gotten. It’s that great, an instant classic.
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Smiling Friends creators Michael Cusack and Zach Hadel mean to today’s animation fans what Matt Groening did to Simpsons fans in the early 1990s, Trey Parker and Matt Stone meant to South Park fans at the late 1990s zenith of its delightful obscenity and what Stephen Hillenburg meant to millennial kids tuning into Nickelodeon in the early 2000s to watch SpongeBob SquarePants back when our favorite sponge was just starting at the Krusty Krab.
A new generation of animation fans flood social media with tributes to the various denizens of the Smiling Friends world, from Shrimp to Mr. Frog. The show is madcap lightning in a bottle, a testament to the independent creator era of media and a true sign Adult Swim has some of the best eye for talent in the medium.
Cusack and Hadel have obtained the animation rockstar status reserved for legends like Seth McFarlane and Mike Judge. The memes are everywhere. Along with Adult Swim’s magnificent Common Side Effects, Smiling Friends is the best of what animation can do in this decade, and it’s just getting started.
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For the Win got the chance to catch up with Cusack and Hadel about the show’s third season, one where we’ve already met Silly Samuel, watched Mr. Frog achieve transcendence and journeyed into the dark world of Mole Man.
This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity. Some NSFW language to follow.
What’s it been like to watch this project take off the way that it has and amass such a big audience?
Zach Hadel: We both come from self-publishing stuff on YouTube, so I had, like, a version of what it was like to have, you know, work on a cartoon for a few weeks and put it out. And, you know, grow subscribers, but I mean, this thing, totally, it’s a different experience because people that have no idea who either of us are just watch the show and enjoy it, so it’s really surreal.
It’s happened a few times, just kind of going around to, like, diners and stuff, sometimes people hear my voice and recognize it, but that’s kind of really it. So, that’s the most surreal part is just watching it grow to people that are, like, outside, like, Michael, like, our whatever, animation world thing. It felt very niche for a long time, and the fact that it’s kind of gotten outside of that is interesting.
Michael Cusack: Yeah. It’s weird scrolling on whatever, Instagram, TikTok, and coming across Smiling Friends stuff when you’re just, like, not expecting it to. So yeah, it’s been amazing to see.
When you guys kind of look back at some of the animation that really inspired you both, what have been some of the big hallmarks that have really poured into the series in terms of your influences?
MC: We both grew up with some similar shows. There’s a crossover, maybe more than others, like, I know Zach’s, Zach was very inspired by things like SpongeBob, and we both loved South Park, and even early Family Guy, to be honest.
Also, like, online cartoons… early webtoons… we were there for it all. So, we’re cartoon heads; we’re inspired by a lot of the same, similar stuff… Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, all those shows, so, maybe it’s all trickled in a little bit subconsciously.
ZH: You bring up a good point, though, the only thing I would tag onto that is, yeah, it’s definitely the, like, the South Park and all that stuff, and you… I know you were big on The Simpsons and stuff, but the internet stuff, I think it’s the infusion of those two, which is what…it was what makes Smiling Friends.
MC: It was, like, a different flavor of animation, like how it was used on the internet. So, like, we very much were, like, born out of that primordial soup, so it’s got, like, a… it was bringing the, like, the internet vibes of cartoons to TV. That was, like, a little bit of the mission, in a way. Not really, whatever.
You brought up The Simpsons. How surreal is it for you guys to see The Simpsons do a Smiling Friends parody on a recent episode?
ZH: We were furious. We were making phone calls, throwing stuff, yeah, we…
MC: No, that was… it was crazy. Zach sent me a message, telling me about it, and I just couldn’t… it’s one of the most surreal moments of my life, probably, like, because growing up with The Simpsons and seeing them reference, the fact that Bart in theory knows about us, or at least a parody version of us, is very strange to me in both brain.
ZH: It was surreal. It was really weird because it wasn’t like, you know, like, when that came out, like, a couple hours after the episode aired, everybody had seen it, and it was, like, big on Twitter, but I saw it, like, maybe one minute after the [episode] like, after it had aired on TV, because I typed in, I think I just typed in Smiling Friends on Twitter or something and was just looking at, you know, trying to look for fan art and stuff, and I saw that, and it was, like, The Simpsons references. It was, like, one minute ago. And I was like, what? Is that real? And I thought it was AI or something at first, and I immediately sent it to Michael. But, yeah, that’s one of the weirdest things ever. It was very cool. It’s an honor.
Is there a style of animation in the future you guys want to explore to get a little bit more niche with the aesthetics of it?
MC: There are, but we try not to, like… we try not to worry about it too much. We keep it more in our back pocket to wait for the character that’s right for it. So, if there’s the first will come, like, a character that’s interesting, that they want to help, or, like, it comes in another way in the show. And then oftentimes we’ll say, alright, how do we want to portray it? It’s either 2D, like, as if it is just, like, in the show, in the same style as Pim and Charlie, or… or yeah, maybe another one that we haven’t explored, and sometimes that can also just double up ones that we’ve already done, like other animation styles, but maybe done a different style, but there’s definitely… there’s definitely some ones that we like, but yeah, like I said, it more marries with the character that’s right for it.
ZH: We never try, we always want to make sure that it doesn’t feel… you know when people that watch the show go, ‘Alright, what’s the, what’s the gimmick this week? What’s the… oh, you’re doing stop-motion?’ It’s like, you want it to feel… we try to make sure those moments… because we do have, like, a list of styles, and I think that’s been getting shorter and shorter, so that’s another thing I’ll say is, like, you can do 3D, you can do stop motion, but it’s like, once you do those, it’s not to say you can’t do them again, but the novelty becomes a little bit less, so it’s like, at some point, as the show goes on, we’ll be down to, like, let’s, I don’t know, let’s do, like, 18th century, like, horse, you know, like, horse animation with the car. Like, eventually, you see what I’m saying? It’s like, eventually we’re gonna kinda get to the… the weird art stuff, and then at that point, you don’t want to feel like you’re… you’re fishing for stuff, so it’s gotta feel right.
And it’s… it can’t just feel like we’re arbitrarily picking stuff, and it’s gotta work for the moment and for the character. Like, Silly Samuel works because that character would be a nightmare in 2D, and also it separates them further, so it’s like, there’s a logic to that, and it’s not just like, would it be interesting if he was 3D? If that kind of makes sense. The only thing I’ll say is, like, I think… I think the only one we did that with was Gwimbly, because it was like, oh, they help a video game character. And it’s like, I think we just figured that out pretty fast, but for the most part.
Is there somebody you guys really want to get into the show as a guest star or cameo voice role?
MC: There are some. There’s some people that we’ve, probably, like, found their stuff recently, more like, before Season 1, and been like, oh yeah, they would be great. I think, again, we’re gonna wait ’til the roll is right for them to go out to people like that. Cause we never wanna… another thing is, we never wanna, like, be like, oh, we’re in season 3 of the show, it’s now big, now it’s our time to go to the big celebrities, Pedro Pascal, whatever, like, we’re not interested in that. It’s like, whoever like, they could be really… they could have, like, no subscribers, but they’re funny to us, or, like, it’s just a role that’s right, for a character, so… it’s kind of similar to the animation style thing.
When we’re writing, we kind of, we’ll come up with a character, then Zach and I will both be like, alright, who would be good for this? Like, who are you watching on Instagram right now? Who’s funny? Like, we always go, like, who we… who do we like that’s out there? So, yeah, there’s a bit of that. And also, like, who… yeah, like I said, who would be right for the role that maybe is, like, an actor, you know?
ZH: Well, even with the actors, we never want it to feel… we’ve had so many conversations, I think even with [Rotten the Snowman from the season 2 finale], for example, we were like, well, the only real stipulation was, like, well, they have to be funny when they scream. Like, it has this other… because that’s a lot of that character was yelling. And I think we had, like, a list of 10 names, but we definitely had names on that list where we were insta… you know, like, a popular actor that’s, like, in or whatever, and you could just… we would, you know, we both instinctively go, that’s, like, that would… that would be lame.
I feel like Smiling Friends has gotten to the place where people are gonna start asking if there’s a movie coming. Has it even come up with you guys?
MC: Definitely come up. Like, it was one of the first things we thought, like, oh yes, you know, do a bunch of seasons and a movie, because we love the South Park movie. That’s probably the best one, to be honest. Like, and it’s interesting about that one, that was done pretty early in the lifespan…. So, I’ve always thought about, like, maybe ending the whole series with a movie, and like, when it comes to the actual story, we’ve got, like, little ideas bumping around, but, I think we’re gonna let that just, like, crystallize over time, and then when it feels right, or if we wanna end the whole series, we’ll tackle that whole big beast. But yeah, that is a big one that we’re thinking about in the background.
ZH: It’s funny, we’re so… we jumped the gun, like, I think before even Season 1 was, like, written, I think when we were just, like, thinking of the show, we got so excited, we thought of everything, like, what would the video game be? So we’ve had stuff for that for a while, but yeah, I think like Michael said, I think that would be… it would be cool in a perfect world, we finish the show out, maybe we go to a beach for a little bit, we come back, and we, you know, top it all off with a movie and a video game. That would be, like, that would be a complete package. You could walk away from that forever and feel you know, that doesn’t need to be touched again. That feels nice. We’ll see what the future holds.
So, what’s it been like to really form the show’s tone and to really strike that balance between absurdist humor and real empathy for the characters?
MC: Where we grew up in, like, a cesspool of the internet, where, like you said, we did see all that, that kind of, like, edgelord humor. But we’re lucky enough where we kind of had years of experience making cartoons on our own, so when we came to Smiling Friends, I think we had more of a… more of a gauge on when to kind of dip into that, and when to be sincere, and not being embarrassed about being sincere, because that’s another thing. If we made this show when we’re, like, in our teenage years, or early 20s, there is, like, that little bit of a of a coyness when you come to anything sincere. And obviously, we don’t dip into it that much, but we like to think that we can balance it right now, seeing as we’ve had that experience.
It’s just, like, another thing, too, is, looking at people like… like Paul McCartney and John Lennon with Beatles, it’s like, one is rough, one is, like, love songs and stuff. Not to say Zach and I are like that, I’m talking more of the flavor of the show. We like to go, like, to the extreme of having, like, brutality and just funny things to us, like people being hit by cars and stuff, but then also going to the other side of balancing that with nice stuff, and even if it’s, like, sometimes, like, for the joke, you know, like, Pim being like, hooray, or whatever, like, it’s still a nice balance to have, like, the nice kid, like, because also their designs are quite colorful.
ZH: I think also, Michael, you know, to your point about, like, the contrast, there are some times where we actually flip roles, where sometimes I’ll go, like, I’ll pitch a joke, or you’ll pitch a joke, and the other one will go, like, does this, like… and I feel like sometimes it’s more appealing, where I’m, like, really concerned about, is this… is this gonna ruin the character? So we do, we do actively think about that stuff, like, oh, is… and sometimes, I’m wrong, like, I think there’s been once or twice where I’ve asked that, and we’ve put it aside, and it’s people’s favorite moments, so we do actively think about, how do we make it funny, how do we make it… not shocking, but how do you make it surprising? And because I think if the show was only sweet, and it was only them hugging and being good friends, that would be kind of not fun to watch.
What do you guys think about the state of animation right now?
MC: I think it’s an interesting time because it’s definitely, like, a… in a way, it’s like a boom, because of the accessibility to making it, and the fan bases that have grown for animation, and obviously, like, executives and buyers have seen that, and now they want to chase that. It also means, like, you’re gonna get a lot of rip-off stuff and copies, that’s just the nature of it. And the other… well, like, animation is also suffering a little bit from using similar techniques, like, a lot of animation is done, like, in a way where it’s puppeted.
And that can work sometimes, and, like, you can integrate that with animation, but a lot of the times, it’s just overused, so that’s me being… that’s a wrap-up on… that’s how I feel, like, in the critical sense, but also, like, there is a lot of interesting stuff going on with animation, and the great thing is just how seeing, like, a bunch of young people getting into animation, like, the best things I’m seeing is, like, on Instagram or TikTok reels, like, independent artists making their own stuff. That’s where I think the most interesting stuff is, and hopefully those kind of people get to make shows, and it captures, like, whatever they’re doing, and it doesn’t change that much, and they don’t get compromised.
ZH: Whenever I talk to people that, work in, sort of, TV animation, or, like, or in L.A., there is a… there, you know, there’s a bit of bleakness… It seems like nobody’s really picking stuff up right now, and there’s a lot of problems, but as Michael said, on the other hand, you also have, you know, the best opportunity ever. It’s kind of… it’s been said a lot, but it’s absolutely true. You could put your own stuff out there, you could go make your own stuff, you could release it, and I think that that’s why we even have Smiling Friends.
I never went to college for animation, I just put my cards… I was nobody, I just put my stuff out there, and people watched it, and Michael did the same thing, and we got an audience from that, and from that, we were able to, you know, break through the other way. Like, it’s not like we went through the normal way, so I would just say to people, go to the internet. There’s, like, you have the entire billions of people that are willing to watch your stuff. Go there, put it out there. You can make your own industry, figuratively speaking, not literally, but, like, you can make your own audience, you can make your own way. So, I think, in some ways, yeah, the traditional thing is going through some problems, but I feel like now has never been a better time to make your own stuff and put it out there and find an audience.
Have you guys ever thought about trying to do another episode like “The Smiling Friends Go to Brazil!” in the future?
MC: We’ve definitely thought about, like, spiritual sequels to the Brazil episode, and it’s one of those things where, when we’re writing, even before Season 1, a lot of the humor was, like, what the funny part about Smiling Friends was them just sitting around and talking. So, like, that was, like, a way to just get that out there, because, like, a lot of the times you’ve got to be plotty in episodes, and you couldn’t really sit in that as much as we wanted to. Yeah, we’ve thought about how to do more of it. It’s one of those things where we didn’t do it in season 2, so now we’re like, okay, well, it’s not a thing we do every season. The Brazil episode was its one-off.
So we’re either thinking of doing, like, hybrids, where it’s like like, a lot of it is like Brazil, and it still maybe is a bit more plotty than Brazil, or we just do another one like it, and whenever it feels right, I guess.
ZH: The original idea was to do a special every season. It was supposed to be… It just kind of fell out the window due to, like, scheduling stuff, but I think the original idea was to do season, and then, like, a special between every season, but… that just didn’t go anywhere. But I, like, to Michael’s point, I feel like there’s more Brazil elements in the show. I feel like we got better at it. I feel like Season 1 is very plotty compared to Season 2, which is a little bit more meandering. There’s a lot more improv-y talking stuff, which some people didn’t like, some people liked it a little more fast-paced, and I think what I’m happiest with Season 3 is that I feel like we do kind of finally… to me, it feels like, the perfect balance of Season 1 and Season 2, where you have kind of plot, you have stuff moving quickly, but you also have little moments of, like, little islands of little improv-y dialogue. So, I think Season 3 as a whole, there is more of that broadly.
How do you kind of keep the show alive and fresh, and what keeps the creative juices kind of flowing for this one?
MC: It’s just literally… it’s just care… like, consistently caring for the show, so… as soon as you start phoning it in, that’s when, like, it’ll go to [nothing]. But, like, every time we go to write a new season, we wanna, like, get ourselves, like, surprised and, like, interested again, like, in episodes, so it’s just trying to just, like, write episodes that are different from the other ones, and just, like, make ourselves happy, like, be proud of what we make, basically. So that’s… it’s always, like, impressing ourselves first, and then the audience trickles down from that.
ZH: It is hard to articulate, but I mean, like Michael said, it’s just caring about the show, and also, there’s, like, a gut feeling, I can’t describe it any other way than that. It’s like, I mean, I don’t know how to make music, so when I see people, like, doing music, I’m like, how do they know what to… but it’s a similar sort of thing where you just kind of, like, if we’re, as an example, with the Mr. Frog episode, to keep it fresh, we just kind of were like, oh, is he president? And it just… something felt about… if you’re watching that, if you explain that episode to somebody, oh, he’s president the whole episode, it just doesn’t sound exciting, so I think it’s just a sort of… it’s two things… It’s the overall long-term way that we’re gonna try to not get stale, and try to keep the show hopefully consistently good and ended on something like a high note, is not wanting to go on forever.
Like, realizing, you know, we have, like, little random, kind of, one-log episode ideas we’ve had floating around for a while, and some of us will go, oh, that’d be a good season 3, one that, you know, that might be better for Season 4. Once the episode ideas start running out, once we stop enjoying making it, once we feel like it’s gotten stale, or we feel like you’ve just seen enough of the characters, I feel like we’ll know to peel away. And sort of on a short-term level, we just go into every episode trying to write something we would find interesting, that we would watch.
What was the global response to Rotten the Snowman getting integrated into the ocean and deciding to go anarchic and try to create world havoc?
MC: I think we even said that, like, at the time, or like, isn’t this, like, a… isn’t this gonna change, like, everything? Like, this kind of, like, [messes] with the whole universe, but then, like, I feel like, whatever, he just, like, something happened where it didn’t affect anything.
ZH: I feel like whatever that was has its own Wikipedia page. It has its own article on Wikipedia. The wave, the great wave of 2024.
ZH: Yeah, yeah, that sorted itself out.
Smiling Friends can be viewed live on Adult Swim and via streaming on HBO Max.
