Just hours after concluding their Passover Seder at the Pennsylvania Governor’s Mansion in April, Gov. Josh Shapiro and his wife Lori were evacuated from the home alongside their children and dogs when an arsonist started a fire using Molotov cocktails.
Shapiro spoke with emotion about the experience on Tuesday night at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., alongside Utah Gov. Spencer Cox. The event was presented in partnership with Disagree Better, The Wheatley Institute at Brigham Young University, and the National Institute for Civil Discourse
It was Shapiro’s experience with religious and political violence that led him to call Cox in the moments after Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at Utah Valley University on Sept. 10, he said.
“I never looked to myself to being any sort of expert on political violence, or, frankly, needing to engage in a national conversation about political violence, until I saw Spencer Cox in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, handle that matter in the way that he did,” Shapiro said. “I saw him lift up not just Utahns, but create an opportunity for a dialogue that I think we sorely need in this country to try and lift everyone up and get us out of the darkness of political violence that has fallen upon us.”
Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, and moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, right, listen to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
Cox, a Republican, said Shapiro, a Democrat, told him something that changed what he said in the wake of Kirk’s assassination.
“He told me to speak with moral clarity and to speak from the heart,” the Utah governor said.
The experiences Cox and Shapiro have had with political violence — including a recent threat on Cox’s life that led to an arrest in Utah — were central to their conversation with NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie at the Cathedral.
The two governors both expressed their worries that the nation is careening toward a destabilizing, violent clash, agreeing with Guthrie the warning lights are “blinking red.”
They also both expressed the hope they find in their faith and in their interactions with Americans who want to pull their country back from the brink.
As the governors spoke, they were interrupted four times by protesters who had to be removed from the Cathedral. It wasn’t clear from video of the event what the protesters were shouting about.
Cox and Shapiro talk about how their faith has helped them
Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, right, listen to Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
Shapiro expressed the guilt he felt after the attack for the danger his family was in. “But,” he said, ”as a family, we also understand that you can’t allow that violence to force you offstage and to force you out of doing this work that is so unbelievably important right now.”
Both Shapiro, who is Jewish, and Cox, a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, expressed the strength they have gained from their faith amid the tragedy of political violence.
“I‘m a very prayerful person,” Shapiro said. “I’m a person of faith, and I pray every day, and I have throughout my life, but I have never felt the power of the prayers of others until the hours and days and weeks after the attack on our family.”
Cox spoke of the call to be peacemakers issued by President Russell M. Nelson.
“The leader of my faith, who passed away just a couple months ago, he taught a very powerful lesson to us,” Cox said. “He begged us to be peacemakers. And in my faith, in the New Testament, Jesus issued a commandment, and I think it’s the hardest commandment of all of them. He told us that we had to love our enemies, that we had to do good to them that hate us and despitefully use us.
“That’s not what politics teaches us today,” he continued. “And too often, we think we can separate our Christianity or our religion from our politics, that I’m going to treat my enemies with love and respect, except if they’re a progressive…. I keep looking for that exception, I didn’t find Jesus saying that anywhere.”
Who is to blame for political violence? Shapiro points at Trump
Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, right, listen to Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
Guthrie asked Cox and Shapiro who they blame for the rise in political violence, and the two men used the opportunity to “disagree better.”
After pointing out that political violence has affected political figures on the left and right, and has been perpetrated by those on the left and right, Shapiro pointed the finger at President Donald Trump, who he said is not providing leadership on this issue.
“When you’re a governor, when you’re a President of the United States, you are looked to for that moral clarity, and we have a president of the United States right now that fails that test on a daily basis,” the Pennsylvania governor said.
Turning to Cox, Guthrie said Shapiro’s response put Cox in an “awkward” position, while pointing out the Utah governor reached out to Trump after the attempt on the president’s life in Butler, Pennsylvania.
Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, asks a question to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, right, during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
Cox responded by saying he thinks the president would be candid about how an event like Tuesday night’s “isn’t his thing.”
“I think he was very honest about it at the celebration of Charlie Kirk’s life,” Cox said. “And we, he and I’ve had this conversation. And, you know, it was interesting after the press conference … when I shared so passionately how I felt about bringing our country together, he called me and he thanked me, and he said, ‘I appreciate that you said that, and I liked that part.’ And he was asked afterward, he said, ‘Do you agree with Gov. Cox that we should, we should practice nonviolence?’ And he said, ‘Yes, I agree with him 100%.’”
Cox said he wasn’t trying to “play down” the president’s “divisive rhetoric at all.”
“I’m not going to do that, but I’m going to say this — if we think that a president of the United States or a governor is going to change where we are right now, we’re fooling ourselves. … I truly believe that the people of our country are the ones who are going to have to change this. We are. Our elected officials are a reflection on us.”
In terms of his side of the political aisle, Shapiro said he was dismayed when some on the political left celebrated the assassination of Charlie Kirk, and the attempt on Trump’s life in Pennsylvania, which led to the death of one of Trump’s supporters. Shapiro also pointed to those who support Luigi Mangione, who allegedly shot UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
“Violence is never the answer, even if it’s coming from your political side or someone who agrees with you,” he said.
Cox: Blame social media companies
Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, listens to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
Cox said social media giants are directly responsible for the rise in political violence.
“If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the social media companies,” Cox said. “These are the wealthiest and most powerful companies in the history of the world, and they’re profiting off of destroying our kids and destroying our country, and they know it, and it’s very intentional.”
He said he would support a ban on social media for those under age 16, similar to what was just enacted in Australia.
Shapiro said he does not support a ban, but instead said he and his wife have launched an initiative to increase digital literacy among children and teens.
Is there a Shapiro-Cox unity ticket in our future?
Guthrie ended the night by asking the two governors if they had presidential ambitions in their future.
Shapiro, who is rumored to have 2028 presidential ambitions, kept quiet. But Cox said, “One of us is not.”
Guthrie responded, “I was thinking maybe a unity ticket — let you disagree better about who tops it. Thoughts?”
The governors just laughed.
Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, right, listen to Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, listens to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, middle, as Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, right, looks on during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, right, listen to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N A sizable crowd listens to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro join for conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, talks as moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox listen during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, right, listen to Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, left, and Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, right, listen to Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro during a conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, listens to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, talks as Utah Gov. Spencer Cox listens during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, and moderator Savannah Guthrie of NBC, right, listen to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, left, listens to Utah Gov. Spencer Cox during their conversation on the state of our politics today at the National Cathedral, Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2025, in Washington, D.C. | John McDonnell for the Deseret N
