If not now, when? What this Evan Mobley-less stretch means for Jarrett Allen’s Cavs tenure: Wine and Gold Talk podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins dig into Cleveland’s growing inconsistency and lack of urgency, framing the upcoming matchup against the Chicago Bulls as a revealing “Cavs vs. Cavs” moment while looking at the individual task and opportunity in front of Jarrett Allen.

Takeaways:

The Problem is “Cavs vs. Cavs”

The guys concluded that the Cavaliers’ primary opponent is themselves. Despite consistently having a talent advantage, the team has underperformed against lower-ranked opponents due to a lack of sustained effort and focus. This issue is described as being “beyond a funk,” as the team is nearly a third of the way through the season and has not shown improvement even after a five-day break intended to address these weaknesses. The consensus is that injuries to key players are not an excuse for the baseline lack of energy and urgency. The team’s performance metrics shockingly place them closer to struggling teams like the Charlotte Hornets than to the top contenders in the Eastern Conference, underscoring a deep-seated internal problem rather than a simple rough patch.

Jarrett Allen is Under the Microscope

With Evan Mobley sidelined for two to four weeks, center Jarrett Allen faces immense pressure to perform. The hosts highlighted Allen’s self-admitted tendency to be mentally disengaged and “float” during games, a flaw that is no longer acceptable for a player on a $100 million contract. While his recent finger injuries are a mitigating factor, the team needs him to be a dominant force, especially on the boards and as a rim-runner in a faster-paced offense. His performance over the next few weeks is seen as critical not only for the team’s immediate success but also for how the organization views his long-term fit, particularly with the trade deadline approaching. This period is a prime opportunity for Allen to prove he can be the consistent anchor the team needs.

A Lack of Fiery Leadership

A significant concern raised was the apparent lack of on-court leadership and accountability. The speakers argued the team is “too nice” and needs a vocal leader — a “bad teacher” — willing to challenge teammates and demand more effort. Frustration was expressed over the players’ “wait-and-see” attitude as evidence of a team that is not playing with the necessary urgency. This passive mindset has led to what the hosts called “uninspired basketball.” The moment when Donovan Mitchell had to explicitly tell Jarrett Allen to play more physically during a game was presented as a clear example of a core player needing to be prodded into action, which shouldn’t be necessary at this level.

Urgent Calls for Lineup Experimentation

The hosts strongly advocated for Kenny Atkinson to experiment with lineups to shake the team out of its complacency. With Evan Mobley out, there is an opportunity to test new combinations, and the game against the Bulls is the perfect time to do so. One specific suggestion was to start Dean Wade at the power forward position and move DeAndre Hunter to a sixth-man role, where he previously thrived with the Atlanta Hawks. This change could improve the starting unit’s rebounding and spacing while giving Hunter a needed “change of scenery.” The failure to make any substitutions during a scoreless overtime period against Charlotte was criticized as a missed opportunity to test players in high-pressure situations before the playoffs.

The Bulls Matchup is a Critical Test of Weaknesses

The upcoming road and home series against the Chicago Bulls is framed as more than just a regular season matchup; it’s a direct test of the Cavaliers’ most glaring weaknesses. Although the Bulls are ranked poorly on offense and defense, they excel in two specific areas: pace (second in the NBA) and defensive rebounding (ninth in the NBA). These strengths will directly attack the Cavs’ struggles with transition defense and securing rebounds, leading to second chance opportunities. The hosts emphasized that if the Cavs cannot secure the glass and get back on defense against the Bulls, they will be punished. The game represents a simple but essential challenge: can the team execute fundamental basketball principles and finally conquer the internal issues that have plagued them all season?

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, none other cleveland.com columnist Jimmy Watkins and we’re coming to you guys ahead of this little road and home series against the Chicago Bulls as the Cavs travel to Chicago, the Windy City to play against one of the fastest, one of the grittiest teams in the NBA. And the Chicago Bulls come into the first contest on Wednesday as the 25th ranked offense and the 24th ranked defense. But you can’t really sleep on these numbers because we’ve seen that the Cavs over the last two contests against the Charlotte Hornets and the Washington Wizards have allowed them to get out to big leads and then had to fight their way back into these contests. Jimmy I think the most concerning portion of the season is that they are coming off a five day stretch where they had time to address all of these areas that we’ve seen as blueprints as weaknesses for teams to attack them and they still have yet to fully adapt to what is going on. And on top of this now the Cleveland Cavaliers are dealing with the Evan Mobley injury and we’ll get into a couple of things that I think could alleviate some pressure. But obviously losing the reigning defensive player of the year and second team all NBA and all star caliber player for two to four weeks is devastating nonetheless, but especially for a 1512 Cleveland Cavaliers team that is looking to find itself and injuries have been hampering that process to start this season. What do you think about going into the Chicago Bulls game or is it less about who the opponent is and who the Cavs are themselves?

Jimmy Watkins: I think it’s crazy that a Dec. 17 game against the 10 and 15 Chicago Bulls is a massive game for this team. That’s where we’re at coming out of that, that little week off they had for the NBA cup stuff, stuff. All the things they were saying about, you know, we’ve been humbled, we’ve had some rowdy film sessions, we’ve had some players only meetings. There’s usually some like at least in the beginning, even if you’re you haven’t fixed everything yet, at least in the beginning you usually see a bunch coming out of that. The cast came right out of the gate with that, fell behind my double digits against the shorthanded Wizards team and then lost to the Lamelo ball less Charlotte Hornets which we can have a count if you know this podcast. You know, I’m not so sure if the Lamelo Ball list. Hornets are worse for wear, but that’s someone that’s obviously a major source of offense they’re not used to playing without. And every time it seems like the Cavs clearly know what their issue is, but they can’t seem to figure it out. And so this is another example. Chicago Bulls, not a very good team, much like the previous two teams they’ve played, much like many Cavs are, have a talent advantage every single night they step on the floor. And so I think this is less about Cavs versus Bulls and this is more about Cavs versus Cavs. I don’t care right now that Evan Mobley is hurt. I care in the big picture. We want him to get better. Of course there are meaningful basketball things that will be worse because Evan Mobley is not out there. I don’t care that Max Strus is not back yet or Sam Merrill is not back yet. Of course we know that they are important parts of the offense with what they can do off the ball, in spacing the floor. And I don’t care. I don’t care about the Darius. I mean, again, Darius is working his way back. I don’t. But I don’t care about any of that right now. Just show us signs of life. Show us the baseline. Even shorthanded, this team currently constructed, if it just gives you a baseline level of effort for four quarters, it should beat these teams comfortably if it remembers the things that it was good at last year. Even though the faces have changed and you’re. And you’re playing younger guys and you’re learning how to play with some new faces in certain places and roles have changed, it shouldn’t be this difficult. And we’re a third of the way through the season, basically 27 games, about 32.9%. Like most teams are who they are by this point. And this team, I’m willing to wait until everyone comes back. But this team to this point, is closer. I put this on subtext the other day, literally closer or as close in some regards to the Charlotte Hornets by net rating, by point differential, by offensive rating, defensive rating. It’s close. But they’re basically equidistant from the Charlotte Hornets in some major metrics than they are to the best teams of the East. Your New York Knicks, your Detroit Pistons, those kind of teams. This is beyond a funk. This is. This has lingered far too long for it to be waved off at this point. Like, I am legitimately concerned. I think my expectations are evolving for what this team can be until I see Cavs vs Cavs, them conquer whatever’s going on on the inside.

Ethan Sands: And Jimmy, I think that’s a good point, especially because after today’s practice for the Cleveland Cavaliers at Cleveland Clinic courts before traveling to Chicago, we got to talk to Dean Wade. And there was a question posed to Dean from his vantage point, where do the inconsistencies kind of stick out the most? And he said, I’m not real sure. I don’t know. We’ve had a lot of guys in and out, had some bad bounces here and there, people not shooting well. These are, I don’t want to say excuses, but like there’s some things that you can control, some things you can’t control. Injuries you can hardly control in this league. Obviously soft tissue injuries are a lot different in this era of the NBA. All of these different things. But then you say bad bounces here and there. We’ve talked about that a lot, right? The defensive rebounding portion of the Cavs game, especially in the era of long rebounds, being the first person to move, the first person to hit, the first person to react rather than being reactive to the opposing players moving before you do. And I think that’s something that the Cavs need to control, especially as we talk about, even if it is Cavs versus Cavs. This Chicago Bulls team who has played not well over the last multiple weeks after getting off to a very hot start that had Cavs fans questioning the Isaac Okoro trade and still to this day doing so. But as I mentioned, the Chicago Bulls are second in the NBA in pace. They’re also ninth in the NBA in defensive rebound percentage. So that means that they’re going to get out into the break and punish you in transition if they can. And the Cavs again have had lapses in transition defense, which becomes, because they are the number one team in three point shot attempts, but also they are one of the worst teams in the NBA when it comes to three point percentage. They’re 28th ranked in the NBA when it comes to 3 point percentage this season and taking the most. I think, Jimmy, there’s a couple of things here that the Cavs can do to alleviate this. One of them is changing the perspective of how they attack defenses to start the game. We’ve seen it when the Cavs get down, when they have their backs against the wall, they get more aggressive. They start attacking the painted area, they start trying to, to get to the rim and obviously having Darius Garland on the floor helps that. But we understand that them shooting the basketball, especially as they are not making as many as they did last year has become detrimental to how they have looked this season and especially on the defensive end where they’ve been trying to be more aggressive at the point of attack. Well, there’s no point of attack if you’re rushing back on defense and you’re just try to pick up a man in transition rather than trying to get to your assignment. And I think this Cavs team, when we talk about the starting lineup in rotations, could benefit from some changes. And to me, with Evan Mobley sidelined for the next two to four weeks with that calf injury, I think you have to go with a starting lineup of Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell Jalen, Tyson, Dean Wade and and Jared Allen because then you got the second unit of sliding Dean Wade or Thomas Bryant, depending on the situation, but likely Dean Wade into the five role as the small ball five and keeping the other rotations kind of even and bringing Lonzo Ball in to keep with the second rotation that Kenny Atkinson has utilized with Lonzo and Dean next to each other. And I think this is something that would not only give spacing, shooting and defensive acumen, but I think it also allows the Cavs to see how they’re going to react to every opponent, not just the Chicago Bulls. But it would be good for them to test this lineup and test this rotation system at least against them.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, Dean Wade’s just a world’s better rebounder than DeAndre Hunter is. And frankly, DeAndre Hunter needs his snow globe shaken like he just needs change. It’s not work. This was supposed to be one of my bold predictions. I am embarrassed to say now, before the season was that DeAndre Hunter could be like a fringe all star guy because I figured increased opportunity the summer remember the summer of DeAndre Hunter that Kenny Atkinson and DeAndre spending all this time together getting more comfortable with each other. DeAndre novel idea. Knowing all the plays, getting acclimated, having a full off season in Kenny’s system, figuring out Kenny getting in the lab, figuring out how he can help DeAndre get better. Looks like main characters being out of the lineup early on, it just seemed like it would fit. It hasn’t fit. He’s not shooting the ball well. He floats through games at time he got benched during the fourth quarter of a loss against Charlotte. So change of scenery. It makes sense both ways. DeAndre Hunter, we know that he works as a sixth man. That’s how he had a career year with the Hawks last year and he frankly, all things considered, it went pretty smooth integrating him into the Cavs bench lineups last year. Now, of course, it helped that his best friend Ty Jerome was a big part of those lineups and obviously the Cavs sorely miss him in terms of their second unit production right now and paint touches. He was, he was a big time poker of defense. Not a guy’s going to put a ton of pressure on the rim, per se, but he’s going to get in the rim and he’s going to draw bigs out because his floater is so dangerous that you have to account for him and that creates opportunities for other people. Right? So I still think the biggest adjustment that the Cavs can make is just to fricking lock in and play hard like the the Bulls as, as not good as they are. The fact that they rebound well and push, that’s a good Test for Cavs vs. Cavs because I was reading this Fred Katz story in the Athletic. It’s kind of amazing the Cavs aren’t better rebounder because they’re one of these teams that are like radically experimenting with crashing more players than ever and they’re seeing probably the least results. I don’t know. Their offensive rebounding numbers are kind of where they were last year. If not, if not a tick down, right? I haven’t checked those numbers in a while, so don’t quote me on that. But the Bulls are going to grab those rebounds. They’re better rebounding team the Cavs and they’re going to run. And the Cavs transition defense has been a repetitive, glaring issue at times with Schier Neck. It happens, particularly with these teams that they think they should just roll over and beat. I got news for you that there’s not a team that exists that they should feel that way about right now. Kenny has still to me seems like the messaging is a little lacked. I mean, of course we did hear about the, you know, the film sessions and lighting a fire. I want more poking, I want more prodding during these games. You can tell that he’s losing his mind on the sidelines sometimes. Like he is really, really going after it. I want to see more of that. Like there has to be more urgency. It’s really not as it still seems to me like Dean Wade saying, well, we’ve had guys in and out. Darius Garland said after the Hornets game, like, let’s see what this looks like down the road. It’s better to have these problems. Not much. I’m so sick of hearing that. And I know Cavs fans are too. It’s like there is A baseline that you have to hit before you ratchet it up. This is not as simple as Max Druce gets healthy. Evan Mobley gets healthy sandwich. Like, you guys are going to have to raise your like your energy is not where it needs to be. And maybe I wonder if they’re missing if it sounds a little different when Max comes back. They need a bad teacher in the locker room. You know, there’s too many good cops, there’s too many nice guys. They need Max Stru to mf somebody out there and we just need to see that fire. It has been missing for so long. I’ve said this before in podcast, there’s nothing more frustrating than watching a talented team play uninspired basketball and play below its potential. That’s what we’ve been seeing for weeks now. So let’s see what the Bulls very simple, two very simple things. They rebound really well, they run, secure the glass and get back on defense. Can you do that?

Ethan Sands: And Jimmy to that point, there’s two different things here, right? And they both kind of circle around Jared Allen, who is returning and is going to be needed more than ever with Evan Mobley out. And again, Kenny Atkinson said today that Jared Allen wasn’t on a minute restriction when he returned to contest on Sunday after missing six straight games.

Jimmy Watkins: So he was also just benchtown.

Ethan Sands: He played two minutes in the fourth quarter, did not play in the entire overtime, as I mentioned on a recent podcast, because Kenny Atkinson refused to make any subs in an overtime period at all when they went 0:10 in the period and were the first team to go scoreless in overtime since 2015. So again, this is kind of encompassing the Jared Allen experiment. If the Cavs are going to continue to tell us that Jared Allen is a crucial piece to this team, and I still believe that he can be. He needs to show it. Over the next two to four weeks, when Aaron Mobley’s out, a lot of eyes are going to be on Dean Wade and how he can help out in a small ball role when Jared Allen’s not on the floor, but when Jarrett’s out there, you cannot rely on having the ball in your hands. You cannot rely on being in every single possession. You have to be involved and you cannot get caught looking around and not being engaged in. And I think it was a good thing that when we were talking to Jared Allen today after practice that he admitted that he knows himself and he can sometimes be disengaged and him being sidelined on the bench, he was trying to be a better teammate While being out and he was having these conversations, having these encouraging moments that it was still trying to test his mental. Remember dating back to before the Orlando Magic series two years ago now in the playoffs where Jarrett was like, my body is always going to be good. My mental is what I sometimes have to re tap into. And that is something for a player that is $120 million a year, one of the best centers in the Eastern Conference, that cannot be a thing. And of course he has been injured since the second game of the season. He injured himself in in the Brooklyn Nets game, then injured himself again his other hand against Boston in the same month. So in the month of October, Jared Allen was dealing with injuries and playing through them before getting sidelined for two games because of the fractured finger and then again this last six game stretch where he was out. But I think if Jared Allen is willing to admit that he has to be better in staying engaged, I think we can also have the conversation of you shouldn’t need Kenny Atkinson to probe you every game and say, hey, we need you, we need you on the boards. We need you to be physical, we need you to be aggressive on the offensive end. And it happened again in the Charlotte game where Donovan Mitchell got caught on the mic and this is me paraphrasing was like, hey, I don’t really care about what’s going on. Hit him and we will deal with the repercussions later. Take a foul, make a statement. And Jared Allen kind of looked at him and was like, are you sure? And I think you mentioned it there, Jimmy, they need more MFers, they need more. And we talked about this behind the scenes holding each other accountable. That needs to happen on the floor too. And Donovan Mitchell saying that mid game is super important. But Jared Allen should not have to be told that as a 6 foot 9 starting caliber center in the NBA, that is getting more physical, that is getting faster. And as a rim running transition running big man, this should be an era that he thrives in rather than is being put into the background. And we want to see what he’s capable of with Evan Mobley out. And I think it’s extremely important for how the Cavs are going to view him in a playoff series or how they view him heading into the trade deadline.

Jimmy Watkins: It’s a really good point that this, this should be Jared Allen’s utopia. We’re playing faster. Jared Allen outruns a lot of big men. That dude can run. He was top 10 in the league last year. And distance traveled, mileage wise, the NBA Tracking data had that he’s a RIM running center. If this Cavs are securing rebounds like they should, Jared Allen can get a lot of free points and he has over his time. You can get a lot of free points just running during this time where Evan Mobley’s out. There’s going to be smaller lineups, there’s going to be better shooting lineups. The floor is going to be spaced, roll hard. That ball come to you. There’s going to be a lot of opportunities for you to work out, to operate with space. And I think he’s another guy La Deandre Hunter, who just kind of needed a reset man. Like whether it was, oh, I’m sympathetic. The idea is do have two really messed up face fingers, one on each hand, right? That’s what we learned today. And he tried to play through it. I admire him for trying to play through it. I think it’s probably for the best that he sat down for a while and first came back. It kind of looked similar. And the first game back. Need to get your rhythm. I understand Kenny. Kenny was saying today that it was, you know, decision making was more the rhythm that he saw missing there. But I hear what you’re saying is good that Jared acknowledges self. I believe to a very high degree that self awareness is a virtue. But like we, we’ve. I’ve been hearing Jared Allen acknowledge his flaws for his entire. For the entire time I’ve been here, since Donovan Mitchell’s been here, he’s been acknowledging his flaws. And since Donovan Mitchell has been here, his flaws have crept up again at some of the worst moments in the playoffs. Like your point about Kenny Atkinson shouldn’t need to light a fire into these guys. There’s a ton of credence to that too. Like, you guys are professional basketball players. You guys keep telling us that. You know what the issue, it’s a very simple issue. You guys are just not bringing the heat often enough. You guys are acting like a team that has accomplished way more than you have and you need to stop doing that. Kenny can yell and he’s thrown clipboards in the past and you know, what was he hit throwing water bottles last year at halftime, that sort of thing. But like, at a certain point you just need to do it. There’s only so many different ways someone can tell you before you just need to do it. And that’s what we need to see from. From Jared Allen too, man. Like, I’ve heard so many of the right things get said and then not done with this Cavs team. And Jared Allen, we’ll, we’ll see if he remains a crucial part of what they do once everyone’s healthy. And your point about the trade deadline is prescient. They’re pointing about this off season is prescient. But right now I can tell you Jared Allen is one of the most important players on, on this team. Without Evan Mobley out, he’s the anchor of the defense, the best screen setter that they have on offense. He’s going to be involved in a ton of actions. He’s going to be the guy that outside of Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. And Darius Garland you never like. I think the Charlotte Hornets game was encouraging, but he’s still kind of lumbering out there. Probably going to be touch and go with him for a while, if not the rest of the season. Jerry Allen is going to be one of the guys who puts pressure on the rim. He needs to be out there. This is a little bit reminiscent of that six week stretch from a couple of seasons ago where Evan Mobley was out and Darius Garland was out and Donovan and Jared Allen just went supernova and saved the season. Essentially saved Amy Bickerstaff’s job or delayed the inevitable. Perhaps. But we need that version of Jared Allen. We need the Ironman. We need the guy that J.B. bickerstaff used to say, I sleep better at night when that guy’s on my basketball team. We have not seen that guy often enough this season. And here’s an opportunity for you. Here’s a good Runway. Much like DeAndre Hunter.

Ethan Sands: If.

Jimmy Watkins: Whether they put DeAndre in or out of the starting lineup, both of those guys are at crucial points of their season right now and they need to flush whatever has been happening so far. The other interesting thing that Jarrett said today, I think he was talking more about himself and the team. He was asked about, like, what’s contributing to. You know, you guys keep saying you’re gonna do this, but you’re not doing it. So what’s happening there? And he, he was, he talked confidence and that’s not every day. He said sometimes you get a little down on yourself. Not every day that you hear pro athletes talk about confidence in that way. And I always preach on the show that, like, there’s still people too. Their threshold for confidence, like they, they start way higher than the rest of us. So even when it dips sometimes you don’t even notice it. And they’re still. Their low confidence is still high confidence for everybody else, but they are still people. And when they’re struggling yeah, it takes a hit. And for Jarrett to admit that, I think is a window into what’s been happening. When he drifts in some of these games, he’s thinking too much. He’s thinking too much. He just needs to clear his mind and go, much like the rest of this team.

Ethan Sands: And Jimmy, I think you made a great point about the screening element of tomorrow’s game in particular, like Kenny Atkinson has made it clear that the Cavs don’t want to be this. We’re going into the pick and roll every time down the floor. Well, Isaac Okuro is going to be bothering Donovan tomorrow. He’s going to be bothering Darius Garland tomorrow. So Jerry Allen is going to be critical when it comes to screening, when it comes to off ball screening, when it comes to pick and roll actions and all of these things, pin down screen, all of these things that are going to be critical. And I think it’s so unfortunate for Jarrett because he gets this soft label since the New York Knicks series and the injuries that he sustained have been detrimental to how he’s able to play the game for his responsibilities on the floor. First it was the pierced rim. Hey, I can’t lift my arms up to grab a rebound. Now it’s a. Both of my hands have issues to the point where one of my fingers, I fully cannot extend it anymore and the other is still fractured, so I can’t grab the ball. And Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell are not throwing it slow. And you’ve seen it, Jimmy. We’ve all noticed it when Darius Garland drives to the lane and does a dump off pass to whoever’s in the painted area, whoever’s in the dunker spot, that’s not a slow pass to receive. And we’ve credited Jared Allen for a majority of his career for having soft hands for receiving those passes. Now, of course, you work back to get healthy, as healthy as you can be. You get sick of conditioning, so you expedite the process to get back on the floor. You’re not necessarily 100% healthy, but you’re enough to be able to execute plays more than you were a week or two ago. Now this is something that we’re going to have to give grace to Jared, but we’re also having him under a microscope. So it’s unfair. But it’s also the life of being on the verge of an all star caliber player while also understanding that there are players out and players hamper. So your job becomes extremely important, exponentially important for the success of this team and getting out of a funk because again, you are one of the members of the Core 4. You might be the last member of the Core 4, but this organization turns to you to make things happen. And I think it’s important for Jared Allen and where his confidence is at if we’re going to turn that way. If we’re looking at the confidence of Jared Allen to. To be successful, to be able to do the little things that he’s so good at, physically bumping somebody out of position to allow a smaller guard to come in and grab a defensive rebound, setting a hard screen, rolling hard and setting up a lobby, or simply just running in transition after a defensive rebound, instead of having Lonzo Ball, look for a guard. He can set you up a dead sprint down the floor. And maybe that helps out with Kenny Atkinson who has been saying that he’s tired of his players run into the corners, Jared Allen B line to the basket. And that will open up other things for them as well. Especially as we’ve known Jared Allen’s passing acumen to grow over his career, especially with Evan Mobley and him becoming more of offensive hubs had the free throw line extended. I think there’s more opportunity for him in this style of offense, but it also is critical that he does the things that he is known for as well as growing his game in different facets.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I think people mistake Jared Allen’s mental toughness problem for a physical toughness problem. I see Jared out there. Jared is fighting his tail off all the time and he takes some big hits and he’s played through some brutal injuries. He played 82 games last year and he played the last 75 of the year before. I don’t have questions about Jared Allen’s physical toughness when Jarrett is floating through these games. I don’t think it’s because someone’s bullying him physically out of the way. He doesn’t like he can’t handle the physical pounding. I just think he. He psychs himself out like he something he gets bullied on one plate and he’s thinking about it for the next two trips down the court or the intensity, the feeling to the game like there’s just something that. That doesn’t like when the Pacers series got chippy and I sort of defended him for like remember there’s a faint. The clip last year in the playoffs of when DeAndre Hunter went after Benedict Matheran and Jared Allen was just off to the side like there. He’s just. Jared Allen inherently is not the guy who puts on the snarl face whatever Giannis has, the way Giannis plays. Everyone can understand this. The way Giannis plays and the way Jared Allen and frankly, Evan Mobley play are different. Are different. And it’s, it’s hard. I’m. I’m struggling to verbalize it, but it’s a know it when you see it kind of thing. The Knicks series, was Mitchell Robinson bigger than Jared Allen? Yes. But I think Mitchell Robinson’s edge over Jared Allen became more of a mental edge than a physical edge. He played Jared Allen out of the energy. He out energy. Jared Allen and Jared Allen, where some players have this reserve and when they’re pushed toward that edge, they dig in even deeper. Maybe Jared Allen didn’t have it then and we keep, as I’ve said before, we keep hearing that he’s working on it and he acknowledges that he floats through sometimes and he gets taken out of the game. But we need to see it. We need you to do it and need you to do it now more than ever.

Ethan Sands: I agree. And I think this is a perfect opportunity for Jarrett to come through with all of those different things. And as you mentioned there, Jimmy, the energy portion is one of the things we love about Jerry Allen. And you cannot get out energy, if that’s the way we want to phrase it by anybody on the court, especially not when we talk about a game against the Chicago Bulls on Wednesday night where the Cavs are without Sam Merrill, Evan Mobley, Larry Nash Jr. And Max Drew still. So they’re going to need everything from everybody possible in that game, and Jared Allen is going to have eyes on him. There’s going to be eyes on DeAndre Hunter. There’s going to be eyes on Kenny Atkinson and the roles that he puts his players in and how he utilizes the rotation and the units that he puts on the floor and the combinations that he’s talked about and trying to tinker with experimentation. And that’s a conversation that I’ve been having off the podcast with different people around the organization where it comes to this is game 28. If we’re going to experiment, this is the time to do it. Against the Chicago Bulls, against the Charlotte Hornets, against the Washington Wizards. Yes, we talked about this six game stretch before the Christmas Day game that looked like the Cavs could waltz into the Christmas Day game. 20 and 11. Well, they’re 15 and 12 and they’re trying to figure out who they are and where they’re going to be. And I think that comes down to trying to plug and play different players in different scenarios. And that’s why I was more concerned about Kenny Atkinson not making subs in the the overtime period to potentially see what Tyrese Proctor could give, potentially see what Thomas Bryant could give, potentially see what Jared Allen could give in those minutes. But it was less about winning the game, but putting players in the situation to feel those moments. So when the playoffs come around and those scenarios resurface, they’re ready for those situations. And who knows how the Chicago Bulls game is going to play play out. But I want to see the experimentation that Kenny Atkinson has talked about with these lineups actually come to fruition and continue to tinker with different things and take minutes from players, even All Stars, even star players who are not playing to that caliber on any given night. And I think that’s where we’re at at this point in the season with this Cleveland Cavalry team. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the words stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.